BBRoundtable

Congratulations on acquiring Mario Kart 8, Pelord! I'm glad to hear
that you're enjoying it. Roemello has a Wii U as well, so you
may want to send him that information. It's going to be
a while before I get one (laughs). But when I do, I'll
take down your info. What do you think of it so
far? Do the Koopa Kids play differently enou-
gh to want to use or do they mimic othe-
r players? Nakor, there's more than o-
ne DCSS? Yes, I kind of figured it w-
as a roguelike since those are t-
he titles you enjoy playing a-
nd the video I've seen con-
firmed it. Is this DCSS t-
he latest of roguelik-
es that you've pla-
yed? The close-
st I've gotte-
n to play-
ing a ro-
gueli-
ke:

(is playing Fire Emblem...)

No, just the one DCSS lol. And yeah, I've played it for a while. Five wins to date.

http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Thalfon/mor ... 224910.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Thalfon/mor ... 025022.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Thalfon/mor ... 195347.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Thalfon/mor ... 025231.txt
http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Thalfon/mor ... 001629.txt

Indeed you have been playing for "a while" (laughs)!
My goodness! Those are some heavy stats! I d-
idn't know that such statistics were kept
after gameplay. You've completed it
at level 23? I guess the combina-
tion of items that you had h-
elped considerably (so d-
id the horned helme-
t and that headb-
utt... laughs).
Are the st-
ats nor-
mally
availabl-
e for all to
view are must
you grant people
opportunity to view
them? Just curious. Do
you have any friends who
also play roguelikes and enj-
oy comparing stats? I've read in
my last Gameinformer magazine t-
hat the term "roguelike" comes from t-
he comparison to the classic game called
"Rogue" which was the first to have random
generated dungeons back in 1980, but the clas-
sic Atari game "Adventure" can be considered an i-
nspiration for Rogue (and that was 1975). To think th-
at an idea back then never died or was reborn is amazing.

The game's maximum level is 27. Some races gain experience levels faster than others, and Berserkers are probably one of the easier backgrounds to win with, so an XL23 win isn't super special (no more than any other win in any case). Minotaur Berserker is the usual class to recommend to new players who need an easier time (and a less complicated build -- if you look at the skills I trained in each run, all four of my prior wins had training in at least 10 different skills, while the Berserker had only ever trained 4 of them). Minotaurs are a strong race for melee characters, and start with the headbutt and horns you noticed.

With DCSS you can either download and play the game offline, in which case those stat files (usually referred to as 'morgues') are saved in a subdirectory inside the installation directory, or you can play online like I do and those stat files are always public. Of course, if you play online you can always upload your morgue somewhere (like pastebin) to show others. I play on crawl.s-z.org (known as CSZO) and the domain dobrazupa.org is where the CSZO morgue files are stored. There's an IRC channel ##crawl on freenode with some bots that you can use to look up statistics pulled from these files (like win rates for various races or classes, what percentage of players win after reaching a certain level, etc.).

I'd say the #1 usage for these morgue files is actually when you lose. The reason they're so detailed is that you can post up a morgue file for a game in progress or a game you've lost and get advice from more experienced players on what you can do (or could have done differently) to improve. You'll see this a fair bit on /r/dcss on reddit for example, or on the "YASD, YAVP & CIP" forum ('yet another stupid death', 'yet another victory post' and 'character in progress') on the official DCSS forum, "The Tavern."

I really only know a couple others who actually play roguelikes at all, and they were classmates back at UBC, so I haven't been comparing stats with anyone in particular. I do occasionally help out other players with advice over on /r/dcss though, and once in a while it's convenient to refer them to one of my morgues (winning or losing... sometimes it's handy to have a "here's why you don't try to fight Mara" example) to provide an example of something.

And yeah, that's where the term roguelike came from, for sure. I don't think the genre ever truly died, but it was definitely extremely niche for a long time and you wouldn't have stood a chance of actually trying to turn a profit on one. In the last couple years the ideas of permadeath and procedural generation have taken off again in the form of 'roguelikelikes' or 'roguelites' -- games which are usually hard, use procedural generation to add variety, and usually have something at least similar to permadeath -- and this in turn has reinvigorated the true roguelike genre in turn. Dungeons of Dredmor is an example of a very successful game that did go commercial, Sword of the Stars: The Pit did decently as well, and Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADOM) had a very successful IndieGoGo campaign to restart development and get a full overhaul and modernization. Tales of Maj'Eyal has gotten its donor version to Steam as well. All around very good for the genre.

Ahh... so the character type AND the way one uses a character
has a profound affect on their development in addition to
item/armor management. Understood! I figured as m-
uch, but one can never be too sure when making
a guess whether it's an educated one or othe-
rwise (laughs). Playing online definitely h-
as its share of advantages since viewin-
g other peoples morgues would serv-
e as an FAQ of sorts to help anot-
her player avoid some of the
challenges of their quest.
Have you viewed anot-
her persons morgue
to prepare yours-
elf for playing
when you fi-
rst starte-
d or di-
d yo-
u learn
via trial a-
nd error (laug-
hs). I guess those
who play roguelikes a-
re a rare breed to have in
communities, just as D&D play-
ers were back then and Magic the G-
athering player were when those cards
were much more popular. I never knew just
how popular the genre has been as of recent tim-
es. Unfortunately, I tend to follow mainstream gaming
news (and even that, loosely), so I'm missing a LOT (laughs).
Of those mentioned, have you played them all or is there one th-
at you've recently left alone (outside of DCSS)? The closest to gaming
for me right now is completing puzzles in the Mii Plaza on the 3DS right now.




I've been making some degree
of progress in Borderlands
2 on the Vita, but not-
hing significant rig-
ht now. I won't
really be ab-
le to play
it unt-
il:

(Sunday or Monday...)

I have read others' morgues from time to time, although mostly I've gone with a combination of trial-and-error and browsing discussion forums for general advice. I do often read others' morgues when they post on /r/dcss for advice, and offer pointers on them, and in fact, you can often learn a lot just by reading experienced players' remarks on someone else's morgues, though it helps to have played enough to recognize how to separate good advice from bad. (On reddit, poor/questionable advice usually gets downvoted or responded to, but that's not always the case.)

I have played a few other roguelikes. Dungeons of Dredmor is what got me back into the genre, even before I played DCSS. It's much simpler (despite the ridiculous array of stats the game has -- where DCSS has three, DoD has something like 30) and has a lot of comedy/amusement factor, so I think it's a very good introduction to the genre, but once you're more experienced it tends to become a bit dull. Definitely the A+ game for beginners though. I've also played a bit of Brogue, which I'm awful at, and Tales of Maj'eyal, which was fun but suffers from the random elite monsters varying from pushovers to insanely powerful monsters that can seemingly randomly one- or two-shot you. I tried ADOM a couple times, but I think I'd need a guide, since the game doesn't really give you any direction on where to go/what to do first (it's one of the few roguelikes, along with ToME, that actually has an overworld map).

I tried the demo of Pokémon Mystery Dungeon (which is, in fact, a roguelike, except for it being 'softcore' -- no true permadeath) but it was a little too simple for my tastes. Maybe the late game would be more interesting, but it seemed to lack the depth and tactics of the more 'epic' traditional roguelikes.

As for now playing, I've picked up A Wizard's Lizard, which is a fun little roguelikelike. It's a twin-stick shooter which seems to have picked up some influences from the 2D Zelda games along with Binding of Isaac and Spelunky. Unlike BoI it has true 360º movement and attacking (if playing with keyboard and mouse you'll get 8-directional movement and full 360º shooting). It's maybe a bit more challenging than BoI, at least at first, since there is a relative lack of healing items in A Wizard's Lizard (and often those you find you must pay for), so it's more important to play carefully and avoid taking hits in the first place. Very fun game all around.

Pokémon Mystery Dungeon has roguelike qualities? Now that... I didn't expect. I
guess I've misunderstood that game based on my short-sighted view of it fro-
m the information I've gathered. I've always though it to be more Zelda i-
nfluenced. So I guess it features randomized levels? I guess I'll do mor-
e research on it (laughs). I was wondering about bad advice concer-
ning morgues, but you've already answered it (laughs). I didn't th-
ink that roguelikes featured comedy (laughs). To me, any gam-
e that has permadeath shouldn't be comedic... but then aga-
in, I remember that RPG for the PSP that was advertised t-
o be a game where the player WILL DIE (and DIE, AND D-
IE)... laughs. I can't think of the game at the momen-
t, but I made a post of it here some time ago. I kn-
ow you're familiar with the game. I believe the
game starts with the player fighting the villa-
in and being defeated by him and ultimate-
ly, the player must get strong enough to
be able to defeat him. Though I doub-
t that I'll be able to get involved in
any of them, I'm curious about s-
ome of the games you've men-
tioned and I'll see if I can r-
esearch them upon my r-
eturning (maybe som-
etime tomorrow h-
opefully). I'm go-
ing to try to m-
ke more pro-
gress in B-
orderla-
nds 2
too.



(these are the games I'll check on tomorrow...)


-A Wizards Lizard
-Dungeons of Dredmor

B-
y the
way, wh-
at made Bro-
gue so difficult
for you to play if y-
ou don't mind my asking?

I would say that, unless you demand permadeath as a feature in roguelikes, Pokémon Mystery Dungeon doesn't just have roguelike qualities, it straight-up is a roguelike. It's certainly more of a roguelike than many of the action sort of games (Binding of Isaac, Rogue Legacy, Magicite, etc.) that have been laying claim to the term lately. It's not really a Zelda-like game at all, it's a roguelike in the genre sense: turn-based RPG where every time you move, all the enemies get a move too.

I didn't think that roguelikes featured comedy (laughs).

Roguelike players often have an odd sense of comedy, and hilarious deaths are the most common. That said, the Izuna: Legend of the Unemployed Ninja games for DS are another example of roguelike games with a significant comedy influence.

As for Brogue, it's actually one of the simpler games in the genre just to get into. It's very sleek, their goal was to refine it down to the essentials, and make sure every enemy and item in the game was unique and interesting in some way. I don't think it's actually a harder game than, say, DCSS in any sort of objective sense. It's probably some combination of my having less experience with playing it, and it requiring a different sort of strategy than I'm used to. One interesting thing about Brogue is that experience and levels don't exist, and there is usually no benefit to killing an enemy other than not having that enemy around any more. I'm used to trying to gather as much as I can and make my characters strong enough to overcome future challenges, but in Brogue, after you have a certain baseline of gear, apparently the best strategy is to dive down to the lowest levels, grab the prize and run, rather than spending much time looking for loot in between. It's referred to as a 'coffee-break roguelike', because games of Brogue are often much shorter (even successful ones) than other roguelikes.

If you decide to try Dungeons of Dredmor I suggest using the "No Time to Grind" option (which makes floors much smaller, but increases the XP per monster, so the balance remains the same but the game is much faster) and if you get the expansion, uncheck the option that adds floors 11-15 to the game, because by the time you've reached floor 10 you can probably breeze through 11-14 anyway, so you might as well just fight Dredmor on 10 instead of making the game half as long again.

Ok, now I understand Pokémon Mystery Dungeon much better. Initially, the video I've
seen of it indicated something more action orientated... or at least that was my
assessment of what I've seen (laughs). So a Pokémon game more roguelike t-
han Binding of Isaac? Not something I'd expect (laughs). Then again, this
may have been the purpose in an attempt to take the series in a dir-
ection more appealing to those who appreciate roguelikes. Anyw-
ay, thanks for clearing that up. I've always thought the title of
Izuna: Legend of the Unemployed Ninja was comical, thou-
gh I didn't know it was a roguelike either. I'll check out
gameplay footage of it and the other two titles tha-
t I mentioned previously when I have more time
to do so at my leisure. That's an interesting t-
ake for Brogue since experience is not the
focus, rather one's equipment. This is t-
he impression I got when playing Fin-
al Fantasy 8 for the first time aft-
er trying to gain experience t-
he way that I was used to
only to learn that the
enemies leveled u-
p along with me
(laughs). Sho-
uld I ever
play B-
rogue, I'll
keep the str-
ategy that you h-
ave mentioned in mi-
nd, Nakor. Thanks! That's
an interesting option for Dung-
eons of Dredmor since it caters to
gamers who may not have the time to
play it in lengthy sessions (waves hand... l-
aughs). I'll keep the strategy of DOD in mind as
well... thanks again. I was able to make progress in
Borderlands 2 on the Vita (not much though). I'm still at
level 11, but I'm pushing for 12 by taking out enemies witho-
ut progressing through the story or completing assignments. Also
I'm searching for quality loot. I've discovered better weapons which I
will have to store at some point since I've maxed out my carry limit and
don't want to sell anything in my inventory right now (laughs). Are you still
playing DCSS or have you gone back into something else? Chances are that I'll b-
e playing Borderlands 2 for a long time for the way that I am; very cautiously (laughs).

Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is actually part of a longer Mystery Dungeon series, which you might also recognize under the title Shiren the Wanderer. There are also some Chocobo crossover games and Dragon Quest crossover games in the series. The games are all developed by Chunsoft.

I thought it may have been a collaborative effort of some
type since I doubted that the Pokémon series would
have ever went in such a direction under usual
conditions (laughs). Dragon Quest is one se-
ries I'd expect to try something differe-
nt. I've enjoyed the Rocket Knight g-
ame and was hoping for a seque-
l in the same style. Shiren th-
e Wanderer (according to
Wiki) dates back to th-
e SNES era and had
games on the G-
BA and even
the PSP.
I've f-
inally re-
ached level
12 in Borderlan-
ds 2 on the Vita tho-
ugh currently, I'm exper-
iencing a bug in the game w-
here it crashes after 8-10 minut-
es of play. I've reported it twice so f-
ar. I hope there'll be a patch for this soon.



What are you
playing at
this ver-
y mo-
me-
nt
?

Ah right, guess I should find time to reply to this again, lol.


The characters in MK8 fall under various weight classes, I believe there are 6. The seven Koopalings vary in weight, so each of them play differently, but are similar to other characters in their weight class.

Haven't really played anything new since, though. Picked up some more Xbox Live Games with Gold games though, like Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition. Still waiting on Bayonetta 2 and Smash Bros. :P

Replies are nice... so umm, yes (laughs). Aside from
the weight class, are the Koopalings similar in p-
laystyle? I ask because some reviews I've rea-
d mentioned of them being kind of gener-
ic, though I'm thinking that they may h-
ave meant as characters. In other w-
ords, the reviewers probably wan-
ted to see more recognizable c-
haracters... but I'm just gue-
ssing. I'm still nipping at B-
orderlands 2 on the Vita
at the moment when
I get the chance. F-
or now, the only
game I'm anxi-
ous for is Su-
per Smash
Bros for
the 3-
DS.




(What do you think of Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition?)

Still on Watch Dogs myself, but I don't play it every day, either... just kinda pick away at it every so often. Also toy with Mario Kart 8 which has been a lot of fun. I always just use Mario, so I have no idea what the other characters do

Laughs! Well, it may be interesting to try them
out one day to see if they offer anything d-
ifferent to the gameplay, but given th-
e amount of titles that you own an-
d those you plan on getting, I d-
oubt if you'd want to invest
that much time into so-
mething which you
may not gain m-
uch from. I'm
still on Bo-
rderlan-
ds 2:

(but I recently started Rayman Origins again...)



(then maybe to Rayman Legends...)


By
the w-
ay... what
more is there t-
o do in Watch Dogs
after you've completed it?